Animals in schools

[Sdaji]

Studies also suggest that children that torment animals move on to people eventually.

That's a myth. Have a look into it. No solid studies on the topic exist, and the ones which do exist suggest either no correlation, or they suggest that the link isn't actually there. It's one of those urban myths everyone loves to repeat because they think it makes sense and they 'want' it to be true, but it's not.

[midnightserval]

I was cruel to the family pets at times as a kid, and ill admit it, and im sure alot of other people did too when mum ordered you to go outside and feed the animals when you were busy etc. I used to lock the dogs under a washing basket or whatever cos they were cute when they were panicing, and the poor old galah, he bit me so i poked him with a stick and hurt him pretty bad, and other times we rolled his cage over. Always had a guilt trip about it later but still did mean things to the poor critters.
I havnt killed anyone.... yet...

As for pets in school, i think there should be more of them but strictly policed on the welfare etc. To introduce petcare to kids, as my cousins never had any pets as kids and now theyre extremely intollerant of children or anything thats alive. And they also impulse buy pets and ditch them within a couple weeks just cos they have no clue!

[KJJ]

Studies also suggest that children that torment animals move on to people eventually.

That's a myth. Have a look into it. No solid studies on the topic exist, and the ones which do exist suggest either no correlation, or they suggest that the link isn't actually there. It's one of those urban myths everyone loves to repeat because they think it makes sense and they 'want' it to be true, but it's not.

I think that the correlation between the two is 'backwards' as it were, people who torment (toture, assult, murder) people may often have a history of harming or abusing animals - this does not equate to people who abuse animals will progress to abusing people. In the same way that rapists / sexual predators are often found to have large collections of porn - this does not mean that an individual with a large porn collection is a predator.

[ICED]

EDIT to my previous post - I hope no offense was taken with my comment about proof reading/spellchecking! None at all was intended.

LOL relax Cathie.... I promise I'll only bite your head off occasionally  .

I swear to God it's my dyslexic keyboard Cathie  ....I dunno, they've got to start importing better ones that can spell correctly and have better grammar  .


I was thinking of having a look at existing programs like "Chicks 'r' Us" who allow schools to hire an incubator and give a dozen fertile eggs a couple days before hatching so the kids can see how a chook is born
http://www.chicksrus.com.au/main.asp
My brother got two pet hens from this program.  Really awesome experience for the kids.
Yes part of their sucess is because the programs are already written which attracts lazy time conscious teachers.

Adult female male mice 25-40g, females 25-90g. Is that normal? I must admit, I haven't weighed adult mice for a long time. I only skimmed them, but both were littered with all sorts of errors.

I believe the 25g-90g might be a bit off too depending on the mice weighed.  25g sounds like a small female mouse and 90g sounds like a fawn with obesity issues . 
30-50g is probably more accurate. 50g is probably a bit much too, I do tend to select larger mice for breeding.  About 30g is average for a good doe, 35-40g for a good buck.

Even if we could give the option of hiring a pet mouse for a few weeks?
A trial period?
It's an aweful lot of work and not something that will take one afternoon.  Probably something better done as a focus group.

[ICED]

Go ahead everyone....google images of "vole"....you tell me that first "mouse" isn't a vole.
I'm sure I'm right!

I'm surprised they didn't do the same to the rat page, at least they were all rats.

[Sdaji]

Studies also suggest that children that torment animals move on to people eventually.

That's a myth. Have a look into it. No solid studies on the topic exist, and the ones which do exist suggest either no correlation, or they suggest that the link isn't actually there. It's one of those urban myths everyone loves to repeat because they think it makes sense and they 'want' it to be true, but it's not.

I think that the correlation between the two is 'backwards' as it were, people who torment (toture, assult, murder) people may often have a history of harming or abusing animals - this does not equate to people who abuse animals will progress to abusing people. In the same way that rapists / sexual predators are often found to have large collections of porn - this does not mean that an individual with a large porn collection is a predator.

I think you are probably right about that, KJJ. Statistics are easy to manipulate. 99.9% of all murderers have two arms. OH MY GOD! WE'RE ALL GOING TO COMMIT MURDER!

Obviously that example is extreme, but if I used a less extreme example people might have actually taken it seriously, even though it would actually make no sense.

Another one I like is that there is an extremely strong correlation between drinking alcohol and lung cancer. If you presented the facts to a naive group of politicians or researchers (you'd hope researchers wouldn't be so stupid, but you get morons in any group, unfortunately) you might get funding to research the reasons, etc. However, alcohol doesn't cause lung cancer. The explanation is that most people who smoke cigarettes also drink alcohol, and most people who get lung cancer are smokers, so, most people who get lung cancer drink alcohol, despite the fact that drinking alcohol won't appreciably increase your risk of getting lung cancer.

Very, very similar to the above example is the explanation for the many supposed benefits of vegetarianism. Vegetarianism itself isn't a healthy thing, but vegetarians also tend to avoid smoking, drinking, etc, and are often forced to avoid fast foods, highly processed foods, and other unhealthy things. Most vegetarians also cheat a fair bit and eat the odd bit of fish without admitting to it, or "only eat meat when with friends" or when it is served to them or whatever, but they also often want to hide the fact to save their high moral ground. So despite vegetarianism being bad for you, the statistics can show it is good for you, through a mixture of red herrings, misinformation and misinterpretation.

There are countless other examples. It's easy to be mislead if you don't bother to dig deeper or if you're not too... well, I'll avoid being too offensive

[Dragonflye]

Well, I guess it's a pity I didn't keep the english paper I wrote in year 11, could use those references now. Cbfed doing all the research again just to start an internet debate.

[Dragonflye]

Yes KJJ the correlation is backwards... There is a large majority of people who torture and kill humans that started with animals... But that doesn't mean that every kid thats ever hurt an animal is destined to be a killer.

[Dragonflye]

Sorry for the repetition it appears the flu is still in my head making my head fuzzy.

[razors_girl23]

Sdaji, can you offer more insight as to how vegetarianism is "bad for you"? I understand it's not natural and I can respect you not necessarily buying into people saying it's better for you, but I don't think it's something which is "bad for you". Individuals may have adverse reactions (I for one have very low iron), but I'm a bit wary of your blanket statement.

[Sdaji]

How is it bad? Basically, as you say, we evolved to eat meat and it is natural for us. Plants don't contain everything we need, and what they do contain is difficult for our digestive systems to unlock because they aren't designed anything like the digestive systems of herbivores. The basic story is that a vegetarian diet leads to deficiencies. Iron is just one of thousands of examples, although it's one of the bigger, more obvious and important ones, especially for females. There are many amino acids, vitamins and minerals which vegetarians (true vegetarians, not the ones who eat things like fish, chicken and eggs) are deficient in. I love the irony of vegetarians who are low in iron and supplement their iron intake using tablets... which contain iron derived from animals

If you really want to you can be vegetarian and as healthy as a meat eater, as long as you take the right supplements and prepare your food appropriately (blending your food helps release nutrients, cooking it correctly can help to do the same thing, etc etc). The reality is that no one is ever going to actually bother, and eating a bit of meat is a quick way to save yourself a great deal of daily time and trouble.

Putting it another way, nutritionists will go on and on about how good fish is for you - all those good oils and wonderfully healthy fat-soluble vitamins are brilliant for your health. Naturally, it stands to reason that if you don't eat something which contains lots of goodies, you're worse off for it. It's "bad for you" to avoid what is good for you.

Naturally, eating crap like hot dogs and deep fried meat isn't all that good for you either.

[ICED]

Doh....
Guys can we stay on topic.

Actually I must admit I probably already got the response I needed.  Just wanted to see wheather it would be a worthwhile project for the long term.
I've got a few projects on my plate at the moment so it'll be one best left for later when I've had a good long think about it and how I'm going to approach it.

BTW: A while ago there was a school that took in a pair of mice someone lost interest in, despite my best efforts to recover them I was unable to locate them. 
I was handed the second pair, the mother "Juliet" and her daughter "El Dorado" still reside in my mousery  .

The other pair were "donated" in a bird cage with a heavily pregnant doe and a buck....
lesson one kids....how to round up escaped hoppers....
lesson two.....How to round up the second generation of escaped hoppers because we forgot to remove the buck  .....Oh crap...the first generation of hoppers are pregnant too 

Yeah, kinda hoping to avoid situations like these...

[ICED]

Well, seems like I wasn't the only one with the idea.

I person who has adopted two does for me in the past contacted me desperate for a mouse cage, also desperate for me to sex a litter from a "rescued" pet store mouse  .
The lady is now a childcare worker and was told by her boss that they would love to have a pair of mice in the classroom during the weekdays.  She agreed to take them home on the weekend.

They asked how my IMac project went (recycling Apple IMacs as mouse cages), because they adopted mice prior to the Royal, I showed them and they loved it!

They're gathering as bit of dust at my house so I donated one for use in their child care centre.  The kids are going to LOVE it .
The way I designed them also allows a small padlock to be fitted to the front so the kids won't be tempeted to poke fingers at their new companions.

They've come up with ideas like mouse themed arts and crafts and reading a few kids books with mice as characters.

The lady's using two of her own.  One is an original ICED mouse the other is a pet store pet, they're comming home on weekends.  Sounds like it's going to be awesome!!!

[riotfox]

zipping my mouth shut on the vegetarian issue because its obviously way off topic...

as much as it would be great for schools to be able to help out the issue of animal overpopulation, im just not sure it would be best for the animals.  mostly just because of the logistics of it, not necessarily because i think the children would abuse them.  classrooms dont often have space for properly sized cages, if the animal turns out to be shy it will be terrified, if it gets seriously ill who pays for it, children are likely to have accidents, etc.  most of all, with the children usually occupied with schoolwork or at home (holidays and weekends), how will they get enough out of cage time?

[riotfox]

i have to say also, that even though that statistic may be "backwards" and of course not true for every individual case it does have some merit.  im not saying kids who hurt animals because they dont know better are more likely to be murderers, its more the ones who purposely torture animals for fun that you need to watch out for.  statistics or not, hurting animals demonstrates disregard for life, violence and even sadism, thigs which may eventually lead to violence towards humans.